Bra fitting help » Wrinkling across front.
Cleo » Asher Balconnet Bra (9971) » 28E 28:6
Issue resolved
I learned more about how to classify different shapes and ways to use dimensions to check for better fit.
Original problem
The bra has wrinkling across the front. This happens after I swoop and scoop. The cup also moves around a lot as I move around. Wondering if I need to go down a cup size.
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Suggestions (4)
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helpful
From some of the pictures, you appear to have taller root tissue, above the cup. Is that the case? To me, this looks like a case of "orange in a glass" - the cup is not too big, it's just the wrong shape. In another review, you mention the Marcie fits you better, which is more open on top and friendlier to shallower shapes and tall roots. I've heard from other reviews that the Asher is definitely not the new Marcie.
To that end, I'd try a shallower bra, that's more forgiving of tall roots, in the same size. If you want to stick with Cleo (or other Panache) bras, be warned that their wires are firmer than many other brands - that might be causing some of your pain with the wires in this and the Marcie, especially if a band runs tight.
Example of a potential solution: I typically wear a 30F, but I wear a 32E for Marcie for band/wire comfort (I also have little to no cushioning on my ribcage). (If the band runs loose, or if you prefer a very tight band, this probably won't work for you).
I'd recommend trying something like the Freya Marvel, or Freya Starlet Vertical Seam (Fantasie makes a same cut Allegra vertical seam, but you'd have to move up to a 30 band). The Marvel and the Starlet maybe a little hard to find since they are older styles, but see if you can find something conceptually similar- a touch shallower than this bra. if you don't mind some light foam (not purely unlined but still vertical seamed), Freya makes all sorts of awesome half cups. Cleo also makes half cup styles like the Maddie, Mimi, Juno, Breeze, but again they'll all have some foam, not purely unlined.Tl;dr looks like a shape mismatch, recommed trying a slightly shallower style (e.g. a half cup) same size. Sister size up (30DD) if you regularly have issues with wires digging in or try a brand like Freya with softer wires.
Updated on July 17, 2020 Flag this
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bridgerlady - so... how much reading/math are you willing to do?
tl;dr - the better you understand your boobs and your boob needs, the better this community can make recommendations.
First, remember everything is relative - so when people talk about full-on-bottom, full-on-top, shallow/projected, etc, its relative to their own boobs, bra experience, and what they've seen.
That disclaimer out of the way, here are some things to look at and think about regarding shape:(All tests should be braless)
1) Where is your fullness? The best way to identify this is to lean forward, let your boobs hang free, back parallel to the ground. From the side, look in a mirror. Is there more "mass" above or below the nipple? Still leaning forward with your boobs hanging free, look down your chest. Is there more mass on the inside or outside of your nipples? Terms you might use here are full on top/bottom, even, center full/heavy, etc.
2) Where are your boobs on your chest? (this can be viewed still leaning forward and hanging, or standing up) Do they touch, or is there space in-between? How much? If you support your boobs gently with your hands, does this space change? (Grow/shrink, become more obvious). Looking down at your sides, (standing) where does your boob start? Are the roots 100% on the front of your chest? How far back on your side do they start? If you gently support and compress your breast, is the start of your root more obvious? Terms you might gain from this are narrow-rooted, wide-rooted, close-set, etc.
3) Where are your boobs (Part 2): Standing up and looking sideways in a mirror, where is the top and bottom of your boob? Support them with your hands gently if needed. If you gently compress your boobs, does the top root of your boob change significantly? Is it near your collarbone, above your armpit, at your armpit, below your armpit? Terms you use here are low-set, high-set, short boobs, tall boobs, tall shallow roots, etc.
4) What is your boob tissue? Are they self supporting (you cannot hold a pencil or any other object with just your boob) or more pendulous? Is the boob tissue soft, dense, fibrous (knotty/lumpy)?All of this is leading up to shallow/projected, which are some of the most relative terms you'll run across. You can need immediate projection at the wire, but still have shallow boobs. You can have pendulous, projected boobs, with soft tissue that fits in any cup, shallow or projected. You can have self-supporting but firm boobs that require a very specific amount of projection (not too much and not too little). You can be projected with shallow/tall roots.
I explored this idea A LOT about 5 years ago, and I really loved MilkAndHoney 's ratio for projection. Please note that I simply found this helpful in my own understanding of my boobs, and it helped in my search. Other factors from above may affect your bra fits.
To calculate:
1) Measure your root width, under one boob (can be a little difficult if you have an angled root at the side, but do your best). (we'll call this HR, for horizontal root).
2) Divide by your underbust measurement (UB)
3) Divide by 1/4
So HR/UB*4 = your root width ratio
4) Take your breast perimeter (same one from bratabase) (BP)
5) Divide by your root width (HR)
6) Divide by Pi (3.14) (circle math!)
7) Divide by 1/2 (Pi/2 would calculate a perfect half circle/hemisphere, which many people want in a bra shape)
So BP/HR/Pi*2 = your breast depth ratio
Here is a scatterplot MilkAndHoney had made: https://i.imgur.com/jvyib2C.jpg
Using that, you can see if you have narrow-deep boobs, wide-deep boobs, narrow-shallow boobs, or wide-shallow boobs.If you check out my profile on here (https://www.bratabase.com/@ritzyrunnergurl), you can see all of my personal boob analysis. This may or may not be helpful to you in figuring out your own.
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ritzyrunnergurl all of it! lol. I went to school for engineering, so I'm VERY used to doing math.
Your comment is AMAZING! I did all the numbers, but something isn't right with the ratios because I get values that aren't on the chart. I tried searching for MilkandHoney's post to figure out what's wrong, but struggled to find it. (Internet searches aren't really my strong suite.)
I also read your profile to get more understanding of everything and here is what I found for my boobs:
Full on top to Center
Center fullness
Self-supportingAverage roots -- not totally sure on this one. Reading through your stuff, I have a hands width away from my collarbone as well, which is about 3 inches.
Roots go to my sides a bit. Top of roots are roughly at the lower portion of the armpit.HR=5.25"=133.35mm
UB=26.5=673.1
BP=8.3=210.82Root width ratio=HR/UB/4 = 0.049
Breast depth ratio=BP/HR/Pi/2 = 0.25If you are familiar with bras that are more like me, I would LOVE to hear about them. Thank you for all your help!!
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bridgerlady whoops on my math! I apparently got overexcited typing things out and forgot how fractions work :D
The calculations should be:HR/UB/(1/4)
or
HR/UB*4 =0.79
BP/HR/Pi/(1/2)
or
(BR/HR)/(Pi/2) =1.01So your ratio would be 0.79:1.01, on the narrow side and on the line between shallow and deep.
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ritzyrunnergurl I tried to figure it out for a bit, but gave up. XD
I would also add that I'm pretty sure I need some project at the bottom. Any recommendations on models to try?? -
Based on all that and your review of the Marcie, I'd recommend:
(Before you buy a bra, if you can, check the measurements on Bratabase to better narrow down what works and what doesn't in terms of cup depth, wire width, band stretch, etc)
In general
1) Freya bras - softer wires than Cleo/Panache. Usually good about immediate projection. Not all unlined bras fit alike (see cuts: https://www.bratabase.com/browse/freya/lines/)
2) Whatever you can find on Amazon prime that offers free returns.
3) Polish bras (whenever you're ready to take the plunge)- Ewa Michalak and Comexim are the most popular. I would guess you'd be around a 60DD/E in the M or 3dm (but most 60 bands I've seen run very tight, you may want to try a 65D/DD in a CH/CHP, M, 3d, HM, or PL). Polish bras are a whole other ballgame, but most would agree that they're worth it. *Read the reviews and check the measurements on styles before you buy*
4) If you want to save some money while you're still figuring out the best bras/shapes for you, look on bratabase or braswap on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/braswap/). (Always pay with paypal or another payment system that protects the buyer/seller if something goes wrong).Specifics:
1) Freya - 28E Half cups, vertical seams, and I think you should try a few unlined models, just to see. They don't always agree with fuller on top, but typically have tons of immediate projection.
It might be worth throwing a few dollars at this one just to try it out: https://www.bratabase.com/listings/dlfel/- worst case scenario, you're out $7.2) Cleo - Marcie in a 30D/DD, Hettie in a 30D, a halfcup style (mimi, maddie, etc)
This one might be worth trying: https://www.bratabase.com/listings/dn2g9/
or this (looking at measurements): https://www.bratabase.com/listings/diyow/3)Other maybe:
https://www.bratabase.com/listings/digsb/
This is from Slava-Zone - look through her other listings and the bra measurements to see if any would work for you. She'd probably give you a discount if you bought more than one. -
As you go through the bra fit journey, know that not all sizes and brands are the same. For example, I wear a 30F in most Freya (but a 30E in Gem, Rio, and Deco Delight (which doesn't actually fit but I don't care, I need it for a dress)), a 65FF/70F in Ewa, a 32E in Cleo (marcie/hettie only), and my go-to sports bras are a 32E and a 32F. I used to wear 30FF's in Freya halfcups before the wide wires and high gores started getting to me. Its ok to be different sizes in different bras, and its ok to traverse the projected/shallow line, or the fot/fob line - find what works for you.
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ritzyrunnergurl are you doing these calculations in millimeters or centimeters? I find this fascinating but with a HR of 7.5", UB of 33", and BP of 12.5", I'm coming with .06:1.06 when converting to mm since it looks like that's what you used, which would put me almost off the graph on the left for the first measurement so I feel like I'm doing something wrong. Math is not my strength!
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confused it doesn't matter what units you use, as long as you stay consistent.
HR/UB*4 =0.91
(BR/HR)/(Pi/2) =1.06 -
ritzyrunnergurl not sure how I messed up lol but thanks! That puts me right on the deep side of narrow deep vs. shallow, and not too far from wide deep either, which I guess explains why I can wear some contradictory recommended bras, except for the wide/shallow ones! I feel like the more we can quantify things the better we can find a good starting point and make it easier to find a good bra!
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It would be so nice if the cuts were labeled for their intended shape!
I'm borderline about to try and sew my own. lol. -
ritzyrunnergurl , so this may be a dumb question, but I suppose we could use those ratios when trying to pick out a bra as well, right?
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bridgerlady it's a good question! We were actually just discussing this on adventure over the weekend (I'll tag you on it). Cup depth and cup width are often looked at before purchasing to see if it's worth trying. You can skip the extra math and just look at the depth to width ratio:
CD/CW (compared to your BP/HR)
(This will show up in your bra measurements too)
You'll still need to factor in volume here (with the wonderfully irregular shapes of boobs, this is a little difficult) because a bra 5x your size can have the exact same ratio as yours.
So as you find bras that work and that don't, you'll get a sense of the wire width you need/are comfortable with (remember wires stretch slightly when on). E.g. my root with is 5.5, but a 5.3 or 5.4 EM wire stretches just enough. A 5.7 Freya wire isn't too too big as long as the cup is deep enough, and is soft enough for comfort (but becomes uncomfortable if the bra is too shallow).
Likewise (and this is something that really bugs me) variations in cup depths can work, based on the height of the bra. A lot of people (Bratabase included) try to oversimplify boobs into the 2D space of width vs depth. But boobs are 3D - we should be calculating volume and taking the vertical into account.
Examples: by the numbers, a 30FF Cleo Maddie should fit. The ratio suggests it might be a touch small/shallow. But the truth was that it appeared too big, because the cups were waaaaayy too tall for my short boobs.
A 30FF Freya half cup (Piper) and a 65FF EM CHP have the exact same ratio, but without pads the CHP was a touch too big, while the Piper would verge on being too small (definitely shallower, and caused discomfort due to lack immediate projection- I have fibrous boobs that demand immediate room). If I had softer tissue I think the Piper would have been perfect, if I had slightly taller boobs the CHP would have been perfect.A 30F Freya ignite has the exact same ratio as the two above, and even the exact same CD/CW as the Piper, yet it is a perfect fit. It's a different style (unlined plunge) more projected in all ways and isn't too tall. It's nice to my fibrous, short, averagely projected boobs.
A 30FF EM SM (Ty Weisz) has a larger ratio than the ignite due to narrower wires, but it is also a dream fit, because it is shorter/has less coverage than the ignite.
A 30F Fantasie Alicia (in-between the Ty and the ignite ratios) gapes/wrinkles a touch at the top (except when pms-ing) because the cups are taller than either of the others. All 3 (Ty, Ignite, Alicia) have the same depth (9.5) and are very close in width (5.4-5.7). Ratios in-between 1.66-1.76.
Tl;dr don't rely on the ratio alone. Boobs are 3D, and other boob elements factor in. (Height, tissue density, etc).
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helpfulLooking at all your fit comments I would try same band and go down a cup size maybe? It could.potentially be a shape mismatch but that would be my first try!
Updated on July 16, 2020 Flag this
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helpful
In some pictures you seem to have gapping at the top, and in others the bra seems to be laying flat, sometimes that can have to do with whether your shoulder is pushed forward or back. However, with some of the pictures showing it laying fairly flat I would be concerned that it would be too small if you went down a full size. I tend to think that you just need to try some different cuts, and that likely this one is not a good match for you.
Updated on July 17, 2020 Flag this
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veggiechic , you are right, when my shoulders are pushed forward from movement, there's lots of gapping. I wish it was easier to find cuts that were right!
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helpfulbridgerlady if you found the suggestions in this fit request helpful, remember to mark it as resolved. Comments can still be made on solved fit requests, and you can always start new fit requests for new bras!
Updated on August 3, 2020 Flag this
ritzyrunnergurl thank you. I didn't realize I had taller roots. I definitely agree that half cups tend to fit better. Although, with the Betsey Johnson, it would cut into the tissue at the top.
I am good with lightly lined bras. I tried these unlined because they were top suggestions based on my measurements. I will give more of the Freya's a look. Part of my challenge is that none of these models are in the store to try on, so I have to order online at specific places to be able to try and return. I'm sure lots of ladies run into that issue!
Any suggestions on better identifying my shape and bras that are made for that shape?